Trauma- Informed Yoga and Play Therapy With Angie Berrett | Ep 25

Host Liz Albanis talks with Angie Barrett about trauma-informed yoga, polyvagal theory, and playful movement. To explore why standard yoga and meditation can feel overwhelming for trauma survivors. Especially when stillness, breathwork, or classroom dynamics trigger freeze responses and body memories for some. Angie shares her background as a child abuse survivor. How betrayal later in life unlocked repressed memories. Why traditional “mind-only” approaches weren’t enough. They discuss the window of tolerance, trauma stored in the body. Trauma-informed yoga principles ( language, pacing, modifications, and nervous system education). Plus polyvagal theory’s ventral and dorsal vagal states. Angie explains how playful, intuitive movement and imagination can be supportive. Release stored stress, expand tolerance, and support recovery without forcing painful experiences. Including a guided swaying/tree exercise and practical tips for rhythmic, repetitive movement. As practical ways to widen the window of tolerance without forcing yourself through overwhelm. 

Key Topics:

• Angie’s story of repressed memories, betrayal, and body memories returning 
• Why calm environments can feel threatening after trauma 
• How standard yoga cues, stillness, and loud breathing can trigger 
• Trauma-informed yoga choices that reduce shame and increase agency 
• Window of tolerance basics and recognising when you are outside it 
• Play and imagination as a bridge to safety and connection 
• A guided play practice
• Red light green light as a simple nervous system model 
• Polyvagal theory an important part of trauma-informed yoga
• Three quick tips for when you are struggling 
About The Guest:
Angie Berrett (she/they) is a trauma-informed coach and founder of Angie Berrett Movement, where she helps women survivors of childhood sexual abuse reconnect with their bodies and begin to experience safety, freedom, and self-trust from within. After years of feeling disconnected, unlovable, and stuck in patterns that no amount of success could fix, Angie reached a breaking point in 2017 that forced her to find a different way forward. Traditional approaches weren’t enough—because the impact of trauma wasn’t just in her mind, it was in her body. Through her own healing, she discovered the power of play, movement, and imagination as tools to access and release what words alone couldn’t reach. This became the foundation of her ALT M

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Transcript

Stillness And The Freeze Response

SPEAKER_03 0:00

When I would take a class, I would end up curled up in the fetal position. I couldn't even cry. I was trained not to cry when I was a child. Just because you're frozen in place doesn't mean your body's not still going, which is what's happening in our nervous systems.

Content Warning And Support Options

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Have you ever wondered why a standard yoga class doesn't always feel supportive? Or why approaches like somatic movement, play, and nervous system awareness can make such a difference. In this episode, I'm joined by Angie Barrett, and we explore why stillness can feel overwhelming for some, or even unsettling for some people, how trauma shows up in the body, not just the mind. The concept of the window of tolerance and how to recognize when you're outside of it, and why the process of working through trauma doesn't have to feel heavy. You'll also hear how playful, intuitive movement can help release stored stress and reconnect you with your body without forcing, pushing, or relieving painful experiences. This conversation is an invitation to soften the way you relate to yourself. Hi, I'm Liz Albanis, and welcome to season two of Yoga for Trauma, the inner fire of yoga, where we explore how yoga can help release trauma, calm the mind, and reconnect you with your body. Before you start listening, this episode could be distressing to some listeners. As this conversation touches on childhood abuse, religion, sexual trauma, and nervous system responses. Please take care of yourself as you listen. You're always welcome to pause, skip, or come back when it feels right for you. If you're in Australia, you also have the option of calling lifeline on 13314.

Angie’s Story And Why Yoga Shifted

SPEAKER_00 2:16

The views and opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host Liz Albanis. The content shared in these conversations is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and it's not suitable for listeners under the age of 18. Please use discretion and consult a qualified professional before making changes to your health or wellness routines.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Angie Barrett, she, they, is a trauma-informed coach and founder of Angie Barrett Movement, where she helps women survivors of childhood sexual abuse reconnect with their bodies and begin to experience safety, freedom, and self-trust from within. After years of feeling disconnected, unlovable, and stuck in patterns that no amount of success could fix, Angie reached a breaking point in 2017 that forced her to find a different way forward. Traditional approaches weren't enough because the impact of trauma wasn't just in her mind, it was in her body. Through her own journey, she discovered the power of play, movement, and imagination as tools to access and release what words alone couldn't reach. This became the foundation of her ALT method trademarked. Awaken, Liberate, Thrive, a body-based approach that helps women unwind survival patterns, reconnect with themselves, and step into a more embodied, self-led life. Angie is also the host of the podcast Healing Doesn't Have to Be Heavy, where she explores a new way of healing, one that creates real change without staying stuck in heaviness. Angie resides in the United States of America. I just wanted to start with what got you doing what you do where you are now.

Betrayal And The Return Of Memories

SPEAKER_03 4:59

I am a trauma-informed, technically, I'm a trauma-informed yoga instructor, although I don't teach yoga anymore. And I'll get into that in a minute. But so I say I'm a trauma-informed coach. I am a registered nurse. I am a play expert, and I'm also a child abuse survivor. So for me, my journey started, my abuse started when I was very young and went for many years and was pretty significant. Was so significant I actually had no memory of it. I don't really have a whole lot of memories. Yeah, the repressed memories. So I don't have a whole lot of memories until I was a teenager. Um, and no memories of my abuse even at that time. I don't even have memories of like normal life until I was around a teenager. Wow. And yeah, it was it was pretty significant. And now that I'm looking back, I'm grateful for it because it's enabled me to get to where I am now. I graduated college as a registered nurse. I've always surrounded myself with trauma. In fact, trauma and emergency medicine is my specialty in nursing because I always knew that I had what I called this black hole of pain inside of me. I just never knew what it was. And all I knew is that I did not feel safe in calm environments. I could only thrive when I had high adrenaline situations, which is why I worked so well in the emergency department. Yeah. When things were calm, I would start to want to peel my skin off. And yet when things were chaotic or, you know, emergent and high adrenaline, high stressful situations, that's where I felt the most in control, although I was continuing to re-traumatize myself. I was continuing those patterns. I married an abusive partner. Um, so just perpetuating this cycle of abuse without really realizing why or what happened. Finally divorced my abusive partner. And then about 10 years ago, I was dating somebody new, and we'd been together for a while. They were not new, but not my abusive partner, and they cheated on me and let me know that they were now with somebody else through a very public Facebook post. Oh, it was and that betrayal by my partner at the time unlocked the memories of my child abuse, being betrayed by somebody that was so close to me because my abusers, I had multiple abusers and they were friends of my parents, and it happened at church. So this um event of being betrayed by somebody who was supposed to love me, who was supposed to care about me, opened and unlocked the memories of being molested and abused as a child when I was growing up by people who were supposed to love me, care about me, were friends of the family, we're supposed to be safe people. And so I started dealing with these dueling traumas. So I was dealing with my partner cheating on me, and then these horrific memories of child abuse coming out, and I hit rock bottom. I just hit the lowest point I ever have. I didn't want to be here anymore.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

When the memories came back, did you just suddenly have flashbacks?

SPEAKER_03 8:13

What was it like? I did. It was all of a sudden. Um, I was remembering it started with one person in particular that I remembered molesting me. And it then it started, it was kind of flashes of memories in my brain. But what started first actually were the body memories. And so for child abuse survivors, it really any trauma survivor, but particularly child abuse survivors, body memories are separate from memories in the brain. And that body memories are where your body actually remembers the sensation. So I would be in a therapy session, and all of a sudden I would feel like I was about to have an orgasm, but I would have this fear and this horror and this wanting to peel my skin off at the same time that I was sexually aroused. And it was just this disconnect in my brain of being like, what the hell is happening? Because this doesn't it was scary, it's very uncomfortable. I hated being in my body. And then as I was working through those body memories, more memories and the type of therapy I was doing is designed to help people with repressed memories bring back memories, and so things started to come back to me, and I started to remember more and more, which was very challenging.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

But releasing it from your body that it stored the trauma, yeah. But then I was able to process it and get it out, yeah, because otherwise we can't process it, and it just stays there and it manifests into all these other symptoms and medical conditions, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

So it I was dealing with these body memories, I was dealing with the memory memories, I was dealing with my partner having cheated on me, I was dealing with wanting to not be alive anymore, wanting to end my own life. I'm so sorry. And oh, thank you. It got to a point where I knew something needed to change, and so I couldn't, I had to stop working as a nurse because I couldn't take care of people anymore. I couldn't even take care of myself. And so I stopped working as a nurse, but I had practiced yoga for years, and the studio that I took yoga at was offering a yoga teacher training. And I thought I'm I need to go do something because if I just sit at home and think about how miserable and unhappy I am, that's not gonna be good, but I can't be a nurse. So I did this yoga teacher training and I loved it. I loved working with people who or to help them work with their bodies in ways that were proactive and not when they were coming to me in the emergency department or in the ICU, sick and needing help that way. So I was working more proactively and it was great. It was it was really powerful. And it was also teaching me to regulate my own nervous system because I wasn't in that constant chaos of being emergency department trauma, intensive care unit. That's what I did as a nurse. That's that was my specialty.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

You mean physical trauma?

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Um well, it to be honest, yes. Working as an emergency department nurse, I've been assaulted, I've been groped, I've been, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

It's I knew you've been you were you suffered physical trauma as a result as a nurse. Oh, yes, yes.

unknown 11:33

That's terrible.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

For anybody that doesn't know, nursing is a tough probably it's a very tough job. And particularly working emergency department, because you're dealing with people who are coming in for all sorts of things, people who don't have at least in America. I'm in America. So our healthcare system um leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of people don't have insurance, a lot of homeless people come in. Anyway, I've been groped, I've been sexually assaulted, I actually had a patient physically assault me. Um that messed up my back. It actually injured my back pretty badly. Oh god. Um, so yeah, nursing. Like I said, I was surrounding myself with trauma because that's the only thing that I knew. That's the only way that I felt comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

And you were distracted, probably, with the busyness and not having to think about it. Yeah, distraction could be a really response.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Absolutely. It it is, and it it fed my adrenaline rush. You know, I used to always say I'm an adrenaline junkie, and I had to do something either something really big to feel. So something like I skydived for a while. I was really big into skydiving because that was the only time that I felt alive.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Or when I felt sad, I was so sad, I was so depressed, I was suicidal. I mean, it was those two big screens. There was nothing in the middle for me because I was so numbed out that it was big one way or the other. And so learning becoming a yoga instructor started to teach me how to self-regulate and and to not have to be in that environment to feel I'm gonna say comfortable, but that was the only thing that I knew. I felt uncomfortable when things were calm.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Yeah, you're not the only guest I've had on who's suffered as a result of religion. And he said the same thing as he was an adrenaline, adrenaline junkie. And he he yeah, but it's also to me, my understanding, I know you've mentioned this in another interview and maybe on your own podcast, but it's about the window of tolerance of being either hyper-vigilant in that adrenaline phase or hypovigilant in that numbness of extreme semastic way of being as in yoga. Um, back to the yoga though, it wasn't in it wasn't trauma-informed the first teacher training. So that didn't, I mean, how did you find that since it wasn't trauma-informed, especially as a sexual abuse victim with touch?

Why Yoga Classes Can Trigger Trauma

SPEAKER_03 14:17

So it actually became really challenging for me to practice yoga. And like I said, I've practiced yoga for 20 plus years, I've loved it, but I typically have done the hot, fast vinyasa where it's really almost power. Yeah. And so once I became a yoga teacher and was dealing with all of this stuff, starting to process my trauma, um, it got to the point where I actually couldn't be a student in yoga anymore. Uh, because when I would take a class, I would end up curled up in the fetal position. I couldn't even cry. I would, in fact, my abuse was so significant, I was trained not to cry when I was a child because my abusers didn't want to hear it. And so I couldn't even cry, but I would end up curled up in the fetal position, unable to move for the entire hour and a half class. And so I stopped going as a student because I just couldn't do it anymore. But I could teach it. So as long as I was teaching and I had kept I kept some distance emotionally from fully feeling into my body and feeling the sensations coming from my body, I was able to do it. But if I was a student and I wasn't in control, I couldn't do it anymore. So I had to stop actually practicing my own practice of yoga for a while. Even by yourself? Even by myself. It would put me, it would put me into, it would just put me into freeze. I couldn't, I couldn't even do it. I would just, like I said, end up curled up literally in the fetal position, numbed out until I could um the class was over, or I could pull myself out of it if I tried it at home. It was just, and it was the sensations coming from my body.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

So even if they were comfortable feeling.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Yeah, even if the sensations were, and I'm putting this in quotes, good sensations, um, they still were putting my system into overwhelm because I was feeling these body memories and I was remembering all these things that were happening, and just the sensory information coming from my body was too much. So I couldn't do it. I had to stop. And it wasn't actually until I did my trauma yoga training that I was actually able to start practicing yoga again. Um, so when COVID hit, uh, I had a friend who is another yoga instructor, knows I have PTSD. Um, and she said, Hey, she was taking this training. It was online from a company, and did I want to take it with her? And I thought, yep, absolutely. So I took it and I loved it. It enabled me to start to be in my body again. And so then I did more training. They have a the group that I went with is a company called Collective Resilience Yoga, and they have an advanced program. So I did more and more training with them, and I did the advanced program and became it, it changed my world in learning how to be in my body. Yeah, it was fantastic. It it helped me to learn how to be in my body and to to process the sensory information coming from my body without putting me as much into overwhelm and shutdown. And two things happened kind of simultaneously when I was doing it. So I was doing my trauma yoga teacher training, and we started talking, one of our lessons was on the power of play, playful movement specifically, and helping us tap into a portion of our nervous system called the ventral vagal nervous system, or the part of our nervous system, polyvagal theory. Yep, absolutely. Love polyvagal theory. Um, but play allows us to find ways to feel safe and to feel connected and to to start to process some of those emotions because it's coming from a place of safety. Play helps us get into that. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Okay, I've never heard that. And then around the same time with my therapist, I was doing a protocol. She had a protocol that was designed for or is designed for children who experience or people who experience abuse at such young ages, they don't know what safety is. And my abuse started, I'm assuming, when I was a baby, um, because it it just knowing what I know now, I'm assuming it started when I was a baby.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

What do you mean knowing what you know now?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

The memories that have come back. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The memories that have come back, um, people say that children don't remember. And so that's I guess why I'm being a little bit vague. People say children don't remember. And I don't have specific memories of when I was a baby, I have body memories from when I was a baby of fear, of blackness, of darkness, of pain, of um sexual arousal, of and from when I was a baby. And so I'm assuming that's what I mean by I'm assuming I don't have any evidence that it started when I was a baby, but as a therapist. Yeah. And I I have memories of when I was a toddler, when I was a young child, very specific memories that um now, full disclosure, I have also done some um psychedelics that do help to so um psilocybin or magic mushrooms are what I have done historically, helped to lower some of that um that reserve in our brain that protects us.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

And so really that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Yeah. And so when I did my first big journey with um psilocybin or or psychedelic mushrooms, I was taken back to body memories of when I was a child and a very specific experience. I mean, not a child, an infant, and a very specific memory that that happened. So um, and the body memories are not something that you can make up. In fact, for those of you that can't see my face, there's like this scowl on my face because they're so uncomfortable. Um, so no, no, it's uh thank you. Um I got sidetracked.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

So no, that's fine. That's fine. So so it happened that young, from what you know. Is that common with are you uh are you willing to um open up about why the religion and why that would happen in that religion?

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Absolutely. So um I have worked very hard to try and understand how the fuck people can do this to children. Because I just I just it I cannot process that. Um and so full disclosure, I was sex trafficked. Um and there was a pedophile cult that was hidden out within the church congregation with my parents. My parents didn't have any knowledge of what was happening. And as I've researched it, pedophile cults are actually really common in churches. It's actually really um common for them to hide out in church congregations, like even the Catholic Church, yeah. The Catholic Church, if you think about the Catholic Church scandal um in the United States, the Southern Baptist had a big sex abuse scandal, um, the Boy Scouts of America had a big sex abuse scandal of young boys being molested by their leaders. And what happens in groups like that is when you have a power dynamic, somebody who's in a position of authority, leadership, power, and control. It's and then you have somebody who is underneath that. So think of in a religious um context. And I'm not saying all religions are bad, I'm saying that there is incredible potential for misuse here. Here. So when you have somebody who's in a position of power, and when you have somebody who is in a position of having to do whatever that person in a position of power says, because in religions, you do what the clergy says. They speak for God, they speak for the divine, whatever you want to believe. And so when somebody who is using that power misappropriately is using it to harm children, the children don't have any idea that what they're saying is wrong. And you know what this person in the position of power is saying is wrong because children growing up, I grew up in a very fundamental Christian household. Um, I was taught you listen to your church leaders, they speak for God. So when they tell you to do something, you do it. And so I know best.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

You don't know anything.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

They know best, yeah. And so for me, um, they also were friends of my parents. And so my parents, who were very heavily involved in in the church activities, would actually give me to some of their friends. I remember that's one of the memories that I have is that my parents actually gave me to one of the people as a baby for them to watch me. So my parents could be um my parents could be involved with the church and they gave me to this person to watch, or for this person to watch me. And that's uh I just remember this sense of betrayal because my parents gave me to this person. And that's how you got trafficked. Um, so because my abuse started so young and I was trained from such a young age, and there was this pedophile trafficking ring hiding out within the congregation, um, it was very easy for them to take me out. Um, so I grew up in the Mormon Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so when I was growing up, there were three hours of church, and the adults left the kids for two hours under the supervision of other adults. And so my abusers would come in, take me out of the children's classes. And I remember I was forced to do things, and things were done to me by strangers, by other people in the congregation. And so there was this whole ring that was being run out of the church building without people who weren't involved, without any of their awareness. Because why would you think that your friends at church are doing anything? And, you know, my parents believe that their God would have told them that something was happening to their child if something was, and nothing happened. You know, people at church don't believe that anything, you know, bad is necessarily going to happen. So um the people who were um the perpetrators and the ringleader of this group were somehow bringing strangers in. Actually, it's very easy. I say somehow. Strangers were coming in, and I remember being forced to do things and to have things done to me by complete strangers, people I didn't even know. And so there was this whole um underground hidden sex trafficking pedophile ring that was happening within the congregation.

Trauma-Informed Choice And Language

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Wow, I won't go any deeper than that. And I would like to say, and as we said, not all religions there there's it's not an issue with the religions, it's a power thing, and it's happened in other churches, and it's even happened in the yoga industry because power can get to people, and we've seen this in a few different styles of yoga, and even recently things have come out without mentioning things. I've gone into that in another episode, but it's not just religion, and for me it was at school because again, the teachers are in a position of power, and I think it might be common that people of who were sexually abused or abused as a child can suffer from amnesia because I know I I I still don't have all of the memories back. Um there was just other evidence of it that was found as well by the doctors um without saying any more. But yeah, I've got amnesia, and I think it's a way of the brain protecting you by covering up those memories. That's my understanding. And I actually thought more memories would come out with the EMDR and the TRE and the yoga, but it hasn't. Um, so that's interesting. And so with the trauma-informed yoga, how did that make a difference compared to the regular yoga? What do you see as the contributing factors that made it unique to your other yoga practice and teacher training?

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Um, great question. One, I learned about the nervous system. We spent a lot of time talking about the nervous system. And so it actually gave me a foundation for understanding what was happening in my body and why I was going into freeze when I was having sensory or somatic information coming up. The program that I did focused on helping trauma survivors with somatic experiencing. They were not, it was not an official somatic experiencing program, but we processed a lot through that. We um we processed how to help people who are trauma survivors even just navigate a yoga class, giving permission to not be okay. So when I did my yoga teacher training, um, an example would be on an in-breath, move your leg up forward or step forward on an exhale, yeah, up down. Whereas in my trauma yoga teacher training, it was move it whatever rhythm you want, whatever feels good. Move faster, move slower, bring your foot to wherever feels comfortable for you. It gave permission. We talked a lot into how to modify um poses so that people can do them, even with um and how to phrase it so it doesn't sound like you're treating someone like they can't handle it. Um, so for example, one of the things we talked about, and I had never thought of this, was for women who have very large breasts, laying on their back can make them feel like they can't breathe. So to do any poses while laying flat on your back can be really stomach or on their stomach. Yeah, it can be really traumatizing. Not only that, but for many child abuse survivors to do something where you open up your chest or you curl up, it can make people feel threatened. And so we learned how to use languaging to give options without making it seem like people were less than because they couldn't do the fullest expression of their pose, which is a phrase I learned in my regular yoga training. So instead of the full expression if you instead of that, it was you know, curl up on a pillow, curl up on your side if you feel comfortable, lay on your back, if you want to, you know, so giving options just up front, so that it took some of the shame out of not being able to do a pose the way that the way that you're supposed to. And I put that in air quotes. Um, it so my trauma yoga training also brought up stuff for me that I wasn't aware of that were triggers for me. So, for example, I've never been able to sit and meditate. I can't do it. I want to peel my skin off anytime that I sit and meditate. Oh my gosh. That's part of it. And I learned in my training that breath work is a trigger for me, especially if I have to hear other people breathing, because it takes me back to being when I was being molested. I heard my abusers' heavy breathing in my ear. So if I'm having to listen to people around me breathe and sit still and can't move, nope, not gonna do it. Like ujae ocean sounding victory breath. Ujai breath. Um, even yeah, that's the probably the biggest one. So, especially with um ujjay breath as you're moving with poses. So, like in a typical vinyasa class where you're typical power class, um, people are just breathing heavy all around, which is what you're supposed to be doing. Once again, I put that in quotes, but for me, too much because I was feeling sensations and hearing the audible breath sounds that to me brought me back to when I was being molested.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Yeah, it's interesting as you say, you know, we're taught Ujai should be loud, because uh just to add this in for listeners and practitioners of yoga and yoga teachers is a lot of us forget that in the Yoga Sutras of Pantanjali, they describe that pranayama should be uh uh soft, uh long and subtle, dirga and shukshma. And if we practice Ujai correctly, the practitioner only should be hearing the audible sound. But I've had teachers say to me, No, you shouldn't be using music, you want to hear your students making that sound, and it's actually too much on the throat and the respiratory system, and once we take out the the subtlety and the length, uh the shukshma and the dyoga, it's just breath work, it's not pranayama, and um, so yeah, just to add that in, yes, it does make sense. You're not the first person to say that, and yeah, and do I think the other thing with the first training is that you I guess you there wasn't a somatic element to it, it was just more alignment. Put your right foot here, it should be straight, and and how to align your body physically rather than feel what's going in your body, what sensations are, and that's why somatic yoga is so different from a lot of the modern yoga we have today, which is very alignment focused and not about feeling.

How Play Builds Safety In Body

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Absolutely. It that was one of the biggest game changers for me was that not only was it teaching me how to feel, but um, my trauma yoga mentors would say, you know, and then step back if you're feeling, you know, overwhelmed or triggered, step back. You don't need to go into it as much. Ease back, ease out of it. So it was giving this permission to not have to go fully hardcore, you know, a hundred out of ten all the time in order to feel it. It was it was really pretty um pretty powerful. And then play became really this big bridge. We did a whole lesson on the power of play, and I think I started talking to this and then I got distracted. Yeah, that's fine. I probably took you out of it, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Doesn't matter. We're having a nice friendly conversation, and I love it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Yeah, so play. Um, we were I was learning about that in my trauma yoga training. And so we did uh we started just with um one of my favorite moves that I did started teaching in my classes, because I was still teaching um yoga classes at the time was in a warrior two or a verabadras in a two, pretend like you're on a surfboard, and so then letting your upper body flow with the wave. And then, yeah, so bringing in some elements of keep your stability, find your strength, find your core, your warrior pose, but then find that play, that looseness, that flow in your upper body by pretending you're on a surfboard. And when I would do that, I would imagine I was like this warrior coming in on a surfboard, you know, paddling in, even though I wasn't actually paddling, but my arms were, and so it started to shift my ability to sit in the poses by doing this element of play. And then kind of at the same time, I started, oh, this is what I was starting to say. So I started doing this protocol with my therapist that's designed for people who experience trauma at such a young age, they don't know what safety is. And I was one of those people. So I, you know, when people say, think of a time where you felt safe. Well, I have no time where I felt safe. I don't even know what that means. I don't know what that feels like. A lot of people don't with PTSD. You don't. And so when people get that, there's no such thing. And so then it made me feel like a failure because I couldn't think of a time where I felt safe and that wasn't something I could access. So this protocol is designed, and what I learned was that um, well, humans are mammals, I knew this, but all mammals are born with our brains pre-wired with seven circuits. So we come out knowing seven things. Yeah, we come out knowing seven things as infants, um, as newborns. Um, all newborns, all mammals do. And play is one of those things that we know as an infant, as a newborn, that we come out already knowing. So if you think of how puppies learn, of how children learn to navigate their world, it's through play. And so I was learning about how important play was in both my trauma yoga training and then with my therapist in in healing my very wounded inner child. And so I started to play. And, you know, I gave an example how I was playing in my yoga, and then I started just playing. And the best example that I can give for that is um one of the things for me is that I was taught to be small, um, because to be big meant I was going to be hurt. And so I had to be small, I had to be quiet, couldn't be seen, couldn't be heard, because that was danger if I was seen, big, heard. And so I started pretending to be an elephant, stomping around my house. And so I got to feel the sensation of being big, of being powerful without my brain going into danger because I wasn't experiencing the human experience of being big. I was an elephant, you know, it it's a babana imagery. Yeah. And so then I started studying, and there actually aren't, at least last time I looked, there are no studies that are done on play therapy for adults, but there's a ton of research done on play therapy for healing PTSD in children. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

So I started myself.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Yeah, I started researching it and studying it. And my thought was I still have the same nervous system that a child does. My brain might not form as um form new connections quickly as quickly as a child, but I still have the same nervous system. So I started, um, I was studying everything I could about somatic work and play therapy for children. And so I started playing, and that became my therapy and my way to be in my body. And it was just astronomical. My healing pathway just went off the charts. Um, I was able to be in my body. I started teaching other women how to play and how to use play to heal. And other women, friends of mine who had experienced both trauma as significant as mine and people who had experienced regular, I'm gonna say normal, and once again put that in quotes, but regular life traumas who had not experienced trauma to the degree that I had. And it worked across the board, this play. And what I learned is that play gives us that opportunity to separate from the human experience. And so we get to feel those sensations that we want without our brain kicking in and being like, nope, danger. Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it free, shut down, shut down. And so my window of tolerance that we talked about earlier started to expand because I learned that I could be in my body and feel safe. And I learned things that helped me when I was starting to feel like I wanted to peel my skin off, um, to stomp around like an elephant and pretend like I was stomping on all those things that were making me feel irritated and itchy. Just it shifted it. It became this outlet for me. And so that's why I say I technically still am a trauma-informed yoga instructor, but I don't coach traditional yoga anymore or even trauma-informed yoga. I coach people how to play and to come back to their bodies.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

And you've come and you've come, and that's you've developed your method from that. I have. Yeah. Now that's fair enough. And so this play method, does it is it's somatic, obviously. Does it help release issues in your tissues in the fascia?

SPEAKER_03 38:42

It does. It it it's incredible. In fact, um, are you okay if I give an example of it? The best absolutely I was going to ask you anyway, and for some some tips. Absolutely. Okay, first thing I'm gonna give a tip on, and then I'm gonna walk y'all through an exercise. Um, first tip that I'm gonna give is play can be deceptively easy to get into really deep, painful stuff because you're just playing, you're having a good time, and all of a sudden you're dealt with, you know, you're in the middle of something really deep that you didn't you don't quite know how you got there or quite how to get out. And I'm giving that caution because I did that. When I started doing this, my thought was, I'm gonna go for the deepest, most painful stuff. I want to get it out, I want to be done. And then I go into it, I'd play, I'd try and deal with some of this really painful stuff that I was doing. I didn't have anybody there to guide me out of it. Yeah, then dangerous. I ended up curled up in the fetal position and had to call my therapist to have her talk me out of a flashback. Sorry. Because I ended up in a flashback. Well, it was my own. I mean Yeah, but we don't know this. I mean, how human of you. You know what, Liz? Yes, for the first time, but the second and the third time, that one was all on me. That one That's all right. So I anyway, just my caution is don't go into the heavy stuff without having someone around who can guide you out if you are gonna do play or any somatic work because you can end up deeper than you were prepared for.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Yeah.

Guided Tree Sway And Shaking

SPEAKER_03 40:13

So you had no one there, and have no one there, yeah. Guide you out, yeah. And and that happened three times to me uh that I had to go my therapist to talk me out of it because I didn't learn on the first two, but I learned on the third one. So I'm gonna give this example and this one you can do standing, you can do seated. It doesn't work as well laying down on the floor, but you can try it if you want laying on the floor. So I'm gonna invite you to plant your feet on the ground, and then if you're seated, just kind of shift around, really feel into your sitting bones. And then I'm gonna invite you to follow along with me and just start with a side-to-side sway. Yeah, I'm I'm doing it too. And just checking in, noticing what's happening in your body, noticing what's happening with your shoulders, your jaw, checking in with your toes and your fingers, your belly, your little back. All right, now I'm gonna invite you to shake it out. Shake out your arms and shake out your legs. Once again, we're mammals, and so mammals out in the wild, animals out in the wild do this shake off or this discharge of energy after they do something or they have a traumatic experience, they discharge this energy, get it out of their body. So, and we have the same nervous system, so shake it out. Now I'm gonna invite you to go front to back with the sway. So, once again, seated or standing, and this time notice how it feels different. Liz, your movements are all of a sudden a little bit more um rigid. Do you feel that?

SPEAKER_02 41:57

No, no, no, no, no, that's my back too. Yeah, that's my lower back.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

But your jaw isn't moving. Um, like your chin isn't moving, your shoulders hunched up. So check in. Now notice what are your toes doing? Are your toes gripping into the ground? What about your low belly, your back?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

My my heels are gripping in. Repressed anger.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

Now I'm gonna invite you to shake it out. We all have one direction that feels more soothing than the other. So one of those, yeah, one of those is gonna feel more comfortable. So for me, it's side to side. Me too. So some people, it's front to back. Doesn't matter, no right or wrong. It just is one feels more soothing than the other. But I'm gonna invite you to go the direction that feels uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

And why is that?

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Just knowing it's feeling uncomfortable. But this is what your body starts to feel like when you're going into stress or tension or distress. So starting to recognize my shoulders are creeping up as I'm going front to back. Liz, you just kind of shifted your jaw around.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

No, I did that on purpose to try to get it. Oh, you did that on purpose. Relax.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

But notice when you go the direction that feels uncomfortable, your brain has to consciously say to relax. So now here's where the play comes in. This is where the play comes in. I'm gonna invite you to imagine that you're a tree, and you can be any kind of tree that you want. It can be a real tree, it can be a made-up tree, it can be a tree with flowers, it can be a tree with leaves. And I'm gonna invite you to press your feet into the ground. If you're seated, press your sitting bones into the ground, and then imagine your trunk, so your spine growing up, and then just start to sway in the wind like you're a tree. And really start to visualize what your tree looks like? What color would you be? Me, I'm gonna be a palm tree with pink and purple and blue leaves. You can be anything you want, like really get into the imagery of it. Maybe you want to be a tree. With flowers. Maybe you want the greenery of a tree. But finding that length in your spine, your spine is this tree trunk that's strong and powerful. And just letting your body sway like it's in the wind. And notice, maybe even just intentionally kind of start to go the direction that feels uncomfortable. And notice, don't think too much about it, but notice how as you're this tree and you're really focusing on what your tree looks like. I have these pink and purple and blue leaves on a palm tree. You can bring your arms out if you want. Notice how that changes what it feels like to go the direction that feels uncomfortable. It may still be uncomfortable, but does it make it a little bit easier?

unknown 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

And then just switch back. You Liz, you have more flow in your neck and your head as you're doing it. So just noticing maybe your belly's not clenched quite as tight. Maybe your toes or your heels aren't clenched quite as much because you've got this strength. Imagine your tree trunk, your belly, you're lengthening up. You're this powerful tree drawing from your feet up through the earth, up into your leaves, this power, this strength, this love. And notice how that feels when you start to go whatever directions your body wants to go. So now I'm going to invite you to come back to the direction that feels more soothing to your nervous system. So for me and Liz, it's side to side. But for you, whichever direction feels more soothing. And now notice how does it feel to go even the direction that feels more soothing? Do you have more flowability? That is not a word, I just made that up, but do you have more movement in your body?

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Uh more movement through my head.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

Yeah, definitely more movement in your head for you, Liz. Yeah. And for those of you uh-huh. So for those of you listening, even though you were feeling, oh, and then shake it out. Shake out your arms, shake out your legs.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Without it falling over Liz. I'm sorry, say that again. No, it's just no, I'm just like, without falling over Liz.

Red Light Green Light Explained

SPEAKER_03 46:28

So with that, when you asked if if play has the power to release stuff from your your tissues, your fascia, and the answer is yes, because as you release it, um, but you know, we were the tree. So we were going the direction that felt uncomfortable. And you can get really into deep, painful stuff when you're playing, because you're just playing. You're not, you're not feeling the human experience. You're playing. And so when you release it out, and then when you come back to that direction that feels more soothing, you notice, or you may notice, that you have more openness, you have more fluidity in your body because you're not holding on to as much because you just released some of it from your body through play. And that was a very simple um calming exercise. There, their play can amp you up and get you into your fight or flight system. One of the examples that I give is um play the best way to understand what's happening in your nervous system, pardon me, is to play the game red light, green light. So going old school, and I don't know if you played that game when you were a kid, but somebody says I remember it.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

Yeah, somebody says green light and you run. And then when they say red light, you have to stop and freeze in place.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

And so what happens with our nervous system is when somebody says green light, you run, kick, punch in place, you know, fight or flight, like you are trying to get away. And then when you say red light, freeze in place. And that's what's happening in your body. But as you do this over and over, you know, three or four or five times, you're gonna notice even as you freeze in red light, your heart rate is still fast, your breathing is still fast, your body's still amped up. Just because you're frozen in place doesn't mean your body's not still going, which is what's happening in our nervous systems as we're in trauma. We until we come out of that amped up fight or flight freeze system and can come into that rest and digest system. And play is a great way to do that. We're just constantly spinning our wheels or playing red light, green light, red light, green light, red light, green light over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Yeah, that's true. So play is one of the seven, and that's the one you focus on. Yes. And what are the other six?

SPEAKER_03 48:47

You know, that is a very good question. Um, I'm gonna remember it's okay. I'll name all the ones I can remember. One of them is care. It's not love, it's care. Um what do you mean by care? Care, like I care for you. Um, I they're very specific. And I don't know how researchers came up with this, but it's it's not love, it's care, like being cared for as an infant or you know, caring for an animal, a child. Care. It's care.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Um care this, so this is interesting.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

It's fascinating, right? So when I learned this, like my mind was blown. It was it was opened up a whole bunch of stuff. So care, shame is one of them. So we come out knowing lots of shame with trauma. But we're wired to know shame. So that's something that that is already wired into us um when we come out. Um anger. Um, there's one that different people call it different things. The one that I learned it, it's called fear of annihilation. And that is um loss, grief, tragedy. Um it's a fear that's worse than death. And it's that unable to attach to the pack, it's that um sense of impending doom that nothing is ever gonna get better. Oh yeah, the thing is it's worse than there is, but we're born with that. So trauma actually makes that worse because we can't connect for children, especially, you know, and if our caregivers are somehow involved, we can't connect, we can't build those safe connections. So fear of annihilation is one. Um and then I always forget the other two.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Um, I'll look it up, but if you had an article on it handy, feel free to send it to me to put in the show notes. Yeah, absolutely. Just coming back to first of all, the stillness that you struggle with in yoga class, one of the reasons was the heavy breathing. And what else did you discover with that stillness being a trigger or just making making you feel worse? Just for other people out there who might go to a yoga class or a meditation class and go, oh, this isn't for me.

SPEAKER_03 51:12

Um, being forced to be still is a trigger in general for me. Um because many others. Yeah, yeah, that's a big one. I hear that a lot from child abuse survivors. Um, I also, so this is another thing that I learned in my trauma yoga training, which freed things up for me, is some of us have nervous systems that are just a little bit, and this isn't related to trauma, but some of us just are people that have, you know, a more active nervous system. I'm one of those people have a lot of energy. And so sitting still is not the way that I can meditate. I can meditate if I'm moving, but I can't meditate in stillness. One, because I get triggered and I was forced to lay still while bad things were happening to me. Um, but also I just have a lot of energy. So when I can get that energy out, I can get more into a meditative state.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Um you need to make your mood and make yourself where you are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

Yeah. Yeah. And um another thing that was really hard for me with yoga classes was feeling like I had to perform. And what I mean by that is I would go and people all around me would be had different body types, had different abilities, and I would push myself further.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

I felt like I had to be in this very deep pose and I would have to perform in order to keep up with the people around me, which was almost like even in a vinyasa class where it's so fast, and that can be a trigger in itself, which is why trauma-sensitive yoga, they have something called rhythm, where they slow it down so you can be more somatic, but also it's less overwhelming without being too slow, whereas it's like stillness, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:03

I was I was gonna say there's a fine line for some of us.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:07

No, no, no, no, no. You're absolutely right. I'm agreeing with you. There's a fine line, and that's where people who are trauma-sensitive and trauma-informed become so important in teaching a yoga class because there is a fine line, yeah, and not everybody has that same fine line. Mine maybe is, I'm sure, very different than yours, and is very different than you know, everybody else listening. There's there's no one set way, and I think that's what trauma-informed yoga taught me. Yeah, and everybody is unique, and so creating a space where people can be who they are and how they are and present how they want became so powerful for me.

Polyvagal Theory Made Practical

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Yeah, so that's what helped. And and I mean, with the trauma-informed, you learn more about the nervous system, as you said before, and somatic experiencing as I mean, not technically the Peter Levine protocol, but you learn about it. And for those who don't know what polyvagal theory is, briefly, would you like to explain that as the Stephen Porgist polyvagal? Because it's very important, I think. Some people think it's not a thing, it's not true, but anyway, there it will be.

SPEAKER_03 54:21

I am a firm believer in it, both from my nursing perspective as well as from the um the yoga world. But so the polyvagal theory is we all have one of our cranial nerves, and we have um, and by that I mean our brain has 12 cranial nerves that that control major functions in the rest of our body. And so one of these nerves that comes from our brain actually goes all the way down to our belly. It's our 10th cranial nerve, and it's called our vagus nerve. And it controls and regulates so many things that happen in our body. Our vagus nerve is responsible, like when you feel nauseated and you're gonna throw up, our vagus nerve is involved in that sensation. So that's why a lot of trauma survivors feel nauseated or have some sort of nausea response, because the vagus nerve gets um gets activated. But the polyvagal theory says that this vagus nerve that literally runs from our brain down to our belly is divided into two portions. The top portion, which is the ventral vagal, and that ventral means upper. Um, that's ventral is the medical term for upper, and it sits in our chest. And that's the part where I was talking about play is involved, where we feel calm, we feel collected. In healthcare, we call it the rest and digest portion of our nervous system. So when you're calm, think of how, like after you've eaten a big meal, you're just chilling, you're vegging out. That's the rest and digest. Then below, about the diaphragm or the rib cage is called the dorsal vagal portion of the ventral or of the vagus nerve. And that goes back to um our freeze state. So that is when we, when our body is convinced death is imminent, it needs to do something to protect us, our brain goes offline, we go into that free state. I always give the example of fetal position. Think of fainting goats, you know, how they get startled and then their legs shoot out and they fall off to the side. Well, we do that same thing, but it's um, and it's based off the lower or the dorsal portion, which means lower. It's down in our belly, our gut. And that's when everything slows down and we literally hold still. So think back to dinosaur times. You know, if you were around a dinosaur and a dinosaur was coming at you, what would you do? You would just hold still and try and hope and do everything you could to keep that dinosaur from attacking you. And that comes from the floor. Yeah, play dead. And our body releases when we go into that dorsal vagal, our body actually releases chemicals, hormones, things that numb us out so we don't feel this inevitable death that we are a protective mechanism. As a protective mechanism, yeah. So when you're in that and you're finding you're having a hard time coming out of it, just know your body's actually releasing chemicals that's designed to help protect you and can sometimes be very challenging to work through.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

That's a beautiful way of describing it. Um, yeah, I I saw that easily when my my beautiful late uh miniature poodle got attacked by a kelpie. I was walking her in the dark and the kelpie was in the front yard loose, and the kelpie was protecting its property, yeah, and it bit her on side of her, oh sort of on her neck, and she went completely limp, like she was dead. It was scary. I mean, it kicked the dog off her and saved her, but that's an easy explanation of polyvagel's theory as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh you've raised some really good points here, Angie. And um, if you had three quick tips for someone who's struggling at the moment, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 58:11

Um, the first thing I would say is it's okay to be struggling. It's okay. Your body is designed to be doing what it's doing, and there are resources that can help you. You don't have to stay there, but it's okay if you're struggling. Um, the second piece of advice I always give is move just a little bit. And even if it's one pinky finger, lift it up and put it down. If that's all you can do, but do things that are rhythmic and repetitive. So lift that pinky finger and then bring it down and then keep doing it because our nervous systems like things that are rhythmic and repetitive. Um okay. So if you think how how do we soothe babies, right? We rock them.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Yeah.

Three Tips For Hard Days

SPEAKER_03 59:01

Yeah. How um for people who are neurodivergent? How do they self-calm down? They self-stem. So they do a lot of rocking or repetitive rhythmic movements. Swaying is one of them. But so doing something that's rhythmic and repetitive. So side to side sway. By the way, I do that one when I grocery shop because I get terrible anxiety at the grocery store. Um, but even if you can't do that, lift one pinky finger and then set it down. And then keep just lifting it as slow as you need, but keep doing it. And then as soon as you can, start to lift the other pinky finger. Do some sort of movement that crosses both sides of the body because you're going to activate into more areas of your brain. And even just that the crossbody work. And even just the simple act of lifting one finger, your pinky finger, and then setting it down, you start to over time notice that now all of a sudden you have two or three fingers involved, and then you start to be able to move a little bit more and feel into your body. Yeah, you bring you come back into your body, so you don't have to stay there. So movements that are rhythmic and repetitive, even if they're small to start with. And then my final piece of advice is that healing doesn't have to just be heavy. There can be the name of your podcast. The name of my podcast. Yeah, that's actually where it came from. Is somebody asked me, what's advice that you have? And I said, Well, healing doesn't have to be heavy. And I realized that so much of what we're taught in trauma healing is that sludging through the pain and the sorrow is just work. And it doesn't have to be. It can be fun and light and play.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

Yeah. And yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, getting into the body. Like it shouldn't just be a top-down approach. We want a bottom-up approach as well. Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Well, that thank you for all your advice and sharing your story, Angie. It's been great conversation. I just want to ask how people can work with you and connect with you, which is also going to be in the show notes, of course. But just yeah.

How To Connect With Angie

SPEAKER_03 1:01:07

Absolutely. So the best way is actually my website. Um, it's Angi Barrett Movement.com, but I spell my last name B-E-R-R-E-T-T. I spell it a little bit differently. So angibarrett movement.com, you can send me a message. I actually have a link for a free five-minute movement sequence you can do. It's my five-minute free out fix. So you can go get that and you can start to play and see what that's like. All my social medias are there. So the best way, like I said, angibarrett movement.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Great. That the freebie link will be on there as well. It's great to have something like that you can download as a resource as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:48

Absolutely. And it and it dips your foot into seeing if play is something that um works for you. It might be very uncomfortable at first, just know that. And that's totally normal, but play can be really powerful.

Reviews And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_02 1:02:01

Yeah, and you've got a unique offering there. So it's great to see some other modalities, the somatic modalities there as well. Well, thank you. And Liz, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I really enjoyed this. Oh, thank you for coming, Angie. It's been great to have you as a guest. My pleasure. If you enjoy this episode, check out episode 18 from season one with Todd McLaughlin. Here's a little snippet.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

A lot of us really would love to find someone that we could put all of our trust in and have them fix us and heal us. But I just don't even believe that's possible. I believe that has to come from within. I believe we all have to walk the journey. And when you investigate these like guru folk, they are struggling. They grew up with trauma, they've been traumatized as well, and they're just perpetuating the trauma.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

Thanks again for tuning in. If you loved the show, my guests and I would really appreciate a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. Until next time, never forget the power of yoga.